Curse

MithranArkanere · Jan 05, 2010, 10:26 PM // 22:26

None is better than the other.

For a blood necromancer, health is usually better. Specially with Grenth's Balance builds.
Against degeneration and armor ignoring damage, health is better.

Against pure damage, armor is usually better.

It's all relative. It all depends on situation. That's why armors have insignia.

Remember, this is GW, there should never be anything that is 'The best', only 'better for this, but not for that'.

Gun Pierson · Jan 05, 2010, 11:21 PM // 23:21

HP with runes and insignia, AR with spells like SY, Watch yourself, Ebon battle standard of courage etc. So you leave town with +600 HP and get the extra armor by spells. Works for me.

It's much easier to pump up the party's AR by using spells than it is to increase the HP on party members with spells.

Zesty · Jan 05, 2010, 11:40 PM // 23:40

For PvE it is possible to switch armor sets in order to deal with any situation that comes up. There is no reason at the highest level of PvE u shouldnt have at least one armor set one health set and minor and sup headgears to switch from. I've ran non-gimmicks in all areas since I first started playing on my new account. This ability has been extremely useful when people start to die or you see a situation where changing may be necessary.

If for one you are doing a balanced HM group for kathandrax and you equip a fire shield, +5 armor sword, and use an armor insignia you go from a 60al to a 83/88al for the majority of armor abiding damage. 23 or 28 extra armor is invaluable. Personal cons are much more effective than a +30 sword, +40 armor or even the 2 combined anyways.

It's good that this is mentioned with the impending nerf to SF. People may actually have to learn how to keep themselves alive without an invincible tank...

kedde · Jan 06, 2010, 12:27 AM // 00:27

As long as the game has a pool of skills this powerful meaning you basically can't run much else than a handful of very similar style builds, the AL will keep being more important since there's no way you can run builds where running equipment all set to armor is a disadvantage.

If hexes, condition pressure and similar styles of play were still playable, AL wouldn't be such an obvious winner and you'd have to decide based on your specific situation and position, but I guess that's just not going to happen ever again.

Malician · Jan 06, 2010, 08:39 AM // 08:39

I think HP may be better for builds with heavy mitigation (or at least competitive). As an ether renewal heal/prot elementalist who generally pbonds 2/3 the party, degen (hex/conditions) are the only significant way I see other players taking damage. I overheal plenty, so healing up the extra room from survivors isn't hard.

Sunyavadin · Jan 06, 2010, 11:47 AM // 11:47

And this is why, for the longest time, my friends and I always ran a blood spike team in AB...

Armour? What armour?

some guy · Jan 06, 2010, 12:32 PM // 12:32

I thought this was the PvP section what did I smoke earlier.

Zsig · Jan 07, 2010, 01:20 PM // 13:20

I'll probably get flamed here, but I respectfully disagree.

I think most people here underestimate health degeneration, and I face it alot when I play, and I don't PvP.

Let's look at it this way, from the 10 conditions present in this game, 4 of them deals health degen, only 1 reduces armor (and even then, it doesn't matter for cracked armor if you have 60 AL).

Now, let's not forget about health degen hexes, which also are everywhere.

I also have to disagree with comments such as "40hp goes out on the first hit you take" , to me they won't go on the first hit, instead, it's the last hit, the one that determines if you're alive or dead, success or failure. Countless times I was the last one standing, and looking ironically at my 1-15 HP left while the rest of the party kissing the ground.

So yeah, I don't mind if you take +AL gear, I won't complain either. But I'll keep my ~625HP, thanks.

Faer · Jan 07, 2010, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsig

I think most people here underestimate health degeneration

Because it doesn't matter at all in PvE thanks to Monks having nothing getting in their way of keeping the entire party topped off at all times. ezmode protting and WoH can keep you up in the worst of times even if you have 350 max health.

Nechrond · Jan 07, 2010, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Speaking as a Guy Who's Good At Mathematics, I'll tell you that since HP and AL are multiplicative rather than cumulative towards EHP, neither can be optimal. The optimum must be a proper balance between these two. Since the ratio of +AL vs +HP differs for armour pieces and weapons, it's probably optimal to get +AL insignias and +HP weapon mods.
Saying that +AL increases healing received is only partly correct, anyway. If your max HP isn't high enough, you won't receive full benefit from powerful heals.

Xenomortis · Jan 07, 2010, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Since the ratio of +AL vs +HP differs for armour pieces and weapons, it's probably optimal to get +AL insignias and +HP weapon.

If you're wanting to mix them, yes. So long as the AL insignias provide more than +5 armour.
A fortitude weapon mod adds 30 health, but a defense mod gives 5 armour.
Full Survivor's adds a mere 40 health whereas something like Tormentor's gives 10 armour. If you can easily meet the conditions for +AL insignias, it's usually worth it.

For PvE though, the difference between the two is near trivial. In the parts of PvE that actually matter, it doesn't matter what you're wearing, you're going to die unless someone prots you.

Swahnee · Jan 07, 2010, 03:02 PM // 15:02

I've done my own calculations and i've seen that the base mechanics are really simple: +AL reduces the damage by some %, while +HP "reduces" the damage only by that
+HP, so the +AL effect becomes better than the +HP effect when you take enough damage. Since the AL vs. HP discussion has some sense only for difficult tasks, as HM, DoA, etc., (anyone worried about ascalon mergoyles?) where you are supposed to take a lot of damage, i'd go with +AL.

However, i usually put survivor on rangers for examples, because if they are midliners (so i'm supposing they aren't wielding a scythe or other melee weps.) with a bow, and they have high base armor (70 vs physical, 100 vs elemental), they probably aren't the first targets of mobs, so IMHO they are expected to take less damage then the casters or the frontliners, so in this case +HP bonus could be better.

But this is only theory, the real thing is that i don't know whatever else to put on a ranger

(maybe that insignia that gives + armor while in stance, or the blessed one, as always), and, as others have said, the difference between AR and HP in PvE isn't important at all.

For the mixing up HP and AR thing, if you are referring to those people using for exaples more armor on chest and legs, and more health on the other pieces of armor (those with less chance of being hit), i've got some problems with this idea:

head +5 hp +10 AR 1/8 chance of being hit
chest +15hp +10 AR 3/8
hands +5 hp +10 AR 1/8
legs +10 hp +10 AR 2/8
feet +5 hp +10 AR 1/8

IMHO, if you put +5 hp on head, hands and feet, you are giving +15 hp on a piece of armor that counts exactly as 1/8+1/8+1/8=3/8. What i'm saying is that if you give up the armor bonus for those 3 pieces, it's the same thing of giving up that bonus for the chest piece, which counts for 3/8 too (i hope that my poor english is clear enough

).

So i don't understand those who put +10 AR on the chest because it has a bigger chance of being hit, and then don't put the same on head, hands and feet, that have all together the same chance of being hit.

Maybe i'm wrong though..

Nechrond · Jan 07, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

For the mixing up HP and AR thing, if you are referring to those people using for exaples more armor on chest and legs, and more health on the other pieces of armor (those with less chance of being hit), i've got some problems with this idea:

head +5 hp +10 AR 1/8 chance of being hit
chest +15hp +10 AR 3/8
hands +5 hp +10 AR 1/8
legs +10 hp +10 AR 2/8
feet +5 hp +10 AR 1/8

IMHO, if you put +5 hp on head, hands and feet, you are giving +15 hp on a piece of armor that counts exactly as 1/8+1/8+1/8=3/8. What i'm saying is that if you give up the armor bonus for those 3 pieces, it's the same thing of giving up that bonus for the chest piece, which counts for 3/8 too (i hope that my poor english is clear enough

).

So i don't understand those who put +10 AR on the chest because it has a bigger chance of being hit, and then don't put the same on head, hands and feet, that have all together the same chance of being hit.

Maybe i'm wrong though..

That's not what I was talking about. What I meant was that if your insignia AND your weapon mods AND your skills all boost AL and you're not boosting HP, you're doing it wrong - the +AL gets more valuable the more HP you have.

Martin Alvito · Jan 07, 2010, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Speaking as a Guy Who's Good At Mathematics, I'll tell you that since HP and AL are multiplicative rather than cumulative towards EHP, neither can be optimal.

Doesn't follow, because the problem is strategic. Whether HP or Armor is superior depends on what your opponents do. This isn't a simple linear programming problem.

If you're facing an environment with nothing but armor-ignoring spikes (Obs Flame, Feast of Corruption) and hex degen, then Armor does no good at all. Under those conditions, you want all HP.

Under all other conditions you want Armor. With the present state of skills today, Armor is superior against both spike and pressure. The non-armor-ignoring spike that kills you at 560 HP and 95 Armor is going to be even more effective at 590 HP and 88 Armor. You should use + Armor mods on your weapons, and not just on your armor.

You're correct that at some point there is a tradeoff and increases in Armor cease to protect more effectively against spikes, but the breakpoint requires armor levels only attainable with "Save Yourselves". For all practical purposes, there's no reason to run Survivor or +HP weapon mods. Vitae and Vigor are the only justifiable options.

Swahnee · Jan 07, 2010, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

That's not what I was talking about. What I meant was that if your insignia AND your weapon mods AND your skills all boost AL and you're not boosting HP, you're doing it wrong - the +AL gets more valuable the more HP you have.

Uhm..i don't understand this. I agree with the fact that aving a higher maximum health allows you not to waste the big heals you receive, but honestly i don't think this is a major issue, expecially if you play with h/h or with monks who don't care much about energy management: they will waste heals (and so energy) anyway imho. But i don't see how the AL gets more valuable the more HP one has. The AL benefit depends on the damage you receive, not on the maximum HP you have.

Maybe you are saying that you are passing from +40hp/+10al = 4 to +30hp/+5al = 6, so you say: in the second case health works better, so i choose it. If this is the case, i think that this idea forgots the central issue: i want to choose what protects me better against damage, and this is more armor, even in the second case.

40/10<30/5 only means that, in the second case (30/5), to reach the breakpoint of AL > HP i need to receive some more damage than the first case (40/10), but i think that in HM the damage you receive is greater than both breakpoints, so in both cases i would choose +AL.

JNKnkr · Jan 07, 2010, 06:14 PM // 18:14

You wouldn't be wasting heals with a lower HP and higher AL. You would benefit more from it as you would be healed for a higher percentage than having high HP, low AL. In cases where HP is more important to have, you could still use high AL and benefit directly from the heals as opposed to healing the full amount, but not receiving the full benefit. High HP is important too, but in most cases, it isn't worth the trade off for high AL. As has been stated, Vitae and Vigor (and possibly weapon HP mods) are usually all you should need for extra health.

Owik Gall · Jan 07, 2010, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Would the AL>HP go for all classes or just the squishes? I see it would go great with 60 armor types, but with paragons and warriors have high armor is it really necessary for those classes to increase their armor as well, or is it better that those classes increase their health instead?

Tenebrae · Jan 07, 2010, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

Would the AL>HP go for all classes or just the squishes? I see it would go great with 60 armor types, but with paragons and warriors have high armor is it really necessary for those classes to increase their armor as well, or is it better that those classes increase their health instead?

It depends , Paragons are midline so they dont really get much hits if there are melees. If they are helping to bblock then they are going to get a lot of little hits because of their position ( mainly ). The more armor they have , the little the damage they take.
In those cases , PS is going to help nothing because they are being hit by 10-40ish anyway but armor can reduce those armor sensitive hits just to give time enough for a heal. Shield of Absorption and Shielding Hands can turn that damage to 0 in 1-2sec if they are "under fire".
Since they ( can ) have shield ( P and W ) they can boost dmg reduction of somekind + HP + 16 armor if req is met , therefore , those particular classes gain more benefit of +HP .... but just because they already have a good armor ratio.

Desert Rose · Jan 07, 2010, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

Would the AL>HP go for all classes or just the squishes? I see it would go great with 60 armor types, but with paragons and warriors have high armor is it really necessary for those classes to increase their armor as well, or is it better that those classes increase their health instead?

It's not necessary, but in general even for warriors and paras +armor is better than +health; if you have +armor insignias available which are nearly always up (like centurion for paras) use them, otherwise use survivors.

Winterclaw · Jan 07, 2010, 11:42 PM // 23:42

+35 hp or whatever it is only has use when you are down to your last 35 hp, ie you are only alive by the margin of your extra HP. +AL is useful every time you get hit by something that is affected by armor.